The Winter Garden Of The Kakita
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        • The Samurai House
      • Of Koku: Samurai Economics >
        • Demographics
      • The Structure of a Village >
        • A Typical Village
        • Ashigaru and Levies
      • The Development of Cities >
        • The Layout of the City
      • The Transition to War
      • Courtiers with no Court
      • Court Ranks and Status
      • Clan Variations >
        • Crab Clan
        • Crane Clan
        • Dragon Clan
        • Lion Clan
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    • Inflicting Actions
    • The Influence Game >
      • Creating a Court
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      • Court Sequences and Events
      • Earning Influence
      • Spending Influence >
        • Rendezvous
        • Favors
      • Sample Courts
    • Mass Battles for Small Groups >
      • Armies in Conflict
      • Goals and Advantage
      • Squads >
        • Command Squads
        • Combat Squads
        • Ritual Squads
      • Skirmishes in Battle
      • Order of Battle
      • Rewards of Battle
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      • Mirumoto Hojatsu's Niten
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      • Hida's Gift
      • What Does Not Kill Me
      • Letter Addressed to Akodo Hirano
      • Research of Kuni Mokuna
      • Hida and Shinsei
      • The Beginning of Meaning
      • The Story of Osano-Wo
      • Battle of the Cresting Wave
      • Lion and Crab
    • Stories of the Crane from the RPG >
      • The Lady Doji
      • The Marriage of Doji and Kakita
      • The First Crane Thunder
      • The Legend of Daidoji Hayaku
      • The Origins of the Asahina
      • The Silver Kirin
      • A Soldier's Report
      • To Win a Heart
      • The First Hantei's Bride
      • Hiramori and Hiramichi
      • Tsume and Katogama
    • Stories of the Dragon from the RPG >
      • The Sword Path
      • The Mysterious Nature
      • Journals of Matsu Chinojo
      • From the Novel Winter
      • Togashi's Secret
    • Stories of the Lion from the RPG >
      • From the Journals of Shinjo Gaemon
      • A Treatise on the Heart of the Lion Clan
      • On a Pedestal
      • A Letter by Akodo Rujo
      • Akodo and Matsu
      • Akodo and Ikoma
      • Akodo and Kitsu
      • Akodo and Shinsei
      • The Death of Akodo
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      • The Journal of Ide Amu
      • Regarding the Death of Matsu Kaiki
      • Observations of Agasha Tamori
      • A Kami on his Knees
      • Shiba's Wife
      • The Lady Asako
      • Battle at Fate Gate
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      • The Honest Scorpion
      • From the Journal of Matsu Sanuro
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      • From Kakita Ryoku’s Famous Novel Winter
      • Bayushi's Promise
      • Frog and Scorpion
      • The Betrayer
      • Scorpion Fables
      • Bayushi's Thunder
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      • The Lady's Heir
      • Regarding Shosuro Kenjo
      • Letters from Akodo Toturi to Matsu Kojike
      • A Ride into Darkness
      • Exodus
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      • Closing Night
      • Masiko
      • Meifumado
      • The Daidoji Yari
      • Letters from the Wall
    • Stories of the Nezumi
  • Fan Fiction
    • AEG Timeline >
      • Kaori's Stories >
        • A Ghost Story from Otosan Uchi
        • A Rokugani Fairy Tale
        • A Thousand Wishes
        • Broken Wings
        • Bushido
        • For Today
        • Gekidan Boukire - The Search for Doji Shizue
        • Ill Omens
        • Little Truths
        • Reflections of Honor
        • Shadow Stolen
        • Sunset at the Sake House
        • The Victory Tribute of Daidoji Uji
        • Watching the Heavens
        • War of the Heavens
      • The Stories of Other Writers >
        • Paper Folding
        • Arrival of the Crab Clan Ambassador
        • Forbidden Knowledge
        • The Journey of the Tear
        • A Song of Infinite Sadness
        • A Letter from the Scorpion - And Response
    • Children of Kashiwa Arc >
      • Beginnings
      • A Letter to the Fox Clan & Makoto - Complete Sincerity
      • March of the Kitsune
      • Words Against the Shadow
      • A Fox in the Works >
        • Chapter 1 - A Fox in the Works
        • Chapter 2 - The Way of Things
        • Chapter 3 - Maiden's Hand
        • Chapter 4 - Three Little Riddles
        • Chapter 5 - What Dreams are These
      • I Have Known Fireflies
    • Onyx and Ivory Arc >
      • Background for the Onyx Empire >
        • The Events of Winter Court 5
        • Between Winter Court and Empire Reborn
      • Who is Doji Arami
      • Light in the Leaves
      • A Hard Road
      • Kyoumi's Stories >
        • Jealousy (A Beginnings Retelling)
        • Snowflakes
        • A Piece of Truth (A Retelling of A Fairy Tale for the Scorpion Children)
        • The Crane Wife
        • A Horror Story
        • Bright and Precious
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        • A Flash of Lightening
        • The Day of Thunder
      • Calls the Lightening - Full
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  • Renaming the Gods
The Winter Garden Of The Kakita

The Winter Gardens of the Kakita

Fan Fiction for the Legend of the Five Rings

Literary Universes

9/12/2021

4 Comments

 
When you are given to over-analysis, as I am, it's important to understand the framework or the reason something is written, if only to rein yourself in, to keep yourself from getting too arrogant.   Or looking really, really silly.  If you are a nutritionist, or even an excellent amateur cook, reading the works of George RR Martin you would, very correctly, determine that the many long descriptions of food in his work are not very nutritionally complete and are not very healthy food.  You could even recreate the recipes in the books, even put together a cookbook!    And you would not be invalid...your analysis is perfectly reasonable.  You're right... It's /not/ necessarily very nutritious,  and it might be quite yummy. 

What you shouldn't do, however, is stretch too far beyond what the purpose of the item you're analyzing.  You can reasonably determine from the many wonderful descriptions of food in A Song of Ice and Fire that George RR Martin is a man who likes food, who likes to write about food.    That's not a big leap.  You can determine, potentially, that the world he's writing about does not value  nutrition the same way you would as a nutritionist, or you could argue that Martin is basing his food in his books on the food found in medieval Europe.  But you can't say that Martin is trying to make some sort of statement in his inclusion of all that food in his books.  It's a book about politics and fantasy.  It wasn't created to be a treatise on diet and exercise.  It is creating a universe, of which food happens to be a part.   A nutritionist who uses the depictions of food in A Song of Ice and Fire to criticize Martin's diet, no matter what that diet is or how healthy Martin is, is going way too far.  They're getting silly.  If you want to criticize Martin's diet, you look at what he actually eats, or potentially, what he recommends other people eat, if he ever does. He doesn't in Game of Thrones.  

You need to look at what the work was created for when you are criticizing works.  

You also need to look at when that work was created.

​If I'm reading Shakespeare, something like, say, the Taming of the Shrew, the depictions of women are terrible, for example.  It's pretty easy to go through the whole works of Shakespeare, and be certain, by modern standards, that Shakespeare was as sexist as can be.  But his depictions of women, for his time, were, if not "woke", brought women out from behind closed doors and purely domestic roles, giving them initiative and some degree of power. Works like  Uncle Tom's Cabin or Huckleberry Finn are absolutely racist by modern standards.  But they also contributed greatly to abolition and the fight against racism.  If you do your analysis and determine Shakespeare as sexist, or Mark Twain or Harriet Beecher Stowe as racist, you'd be right...but it's not a useful analysis, really.  You'd only be pointing out that, yes, they existed in the time they existed in. It's in comparing them to other works of their own time that you get some benefit from that kind of analysis.

So...L5R.

It compares to other similar works of its time.... Vampire's Tokyo by Night, maybe, or   Oriental Adventures, or Bushido.  

How you think it compares to the standards of its time...well, that's a different article.  And it CAN change.  It can be improved.  But if we're looking at improvements,  it's left with a balance of what we can change and what we have to leave because we can't change it too much.  What you think can change, how much it can, and why it should....that's a different article.  

But what was Legend of the Five Rings written for?

Well, I'm pretty sure it wasn't written to be advocacy for neoliberalism or any other economic system.  There /ARE/ Game Systems created to advocate for, or against,  economic systems, the unfairness and cruelty of the oligarchy, and the endless drip of the poisons of racism, sexism, hatred, and despair.  But that's not what L5R was written for. I think it was created to allow players to put themselves in fantasy samurai stories, such as those depicted in Usagi Yojimbo (released 1984), Rurouni Kenshin (1994), many other fantasy and anime works that were becoming popular at that time, and, of course, on the older works of Kurosawa and chanbara cinema.  It taps those sources, and Japanese history itself, to create a fantasy world that would let those stories play out, with details stuffed in there like A Song of Ice and Fire lemoncakes.  And these literary works that it is based on, are all based on the fictionalization and mythmaking from Japanese history and folklore. 

It was written to recreate a literary experience. It was created to make myths and legends, the stories behind the stories that L5R was made to create.

​When your game system is created for mythmaking, it doesn't matter, for example, if Hantei really sliced open the moon with his sword.  It's enough that the characters believe he did.  In fact, in a mythmaking literary universe, it's OK that one of  your PCs can pick up a sword and cut open the moon again.  Because the PCs now are the legends behind a day yet to come. It doesn't matter that there are seven different explanations for why eclipses occur.... each PC believes the version they believe. Scholars may know of several, and pick their own most rational explanation.  The Shadow lies...it wears the face of your lover...it brands unwary Scorpion...it is a piece of the nothing.... Everything can be true, and only the GM knows for sure...and the GM can make their own explanation.  Having the different explanations makes it /better/.... It gives players things that they know and can guess, so instead of being led like children, they can derive and conclude and create based on what the GM offers.  

I love to feed details and ideas to players and GMs, from historic Japan, from China...honestly, from the west if I think it fits.  My The Language of the Fan is based on Victorian fan language, not Japanese.  But they are ideas, launching places for creativity and storytelling, telling these sort of stories.  It's not 'true' or true to life, or anything.  It was never intended to be so...not intended to be even an Edo Japan simulator. 

The universe of Legend of the Five Rings is a literary one,  an exaggerated, larger-than-life one.  Go ahead and get it wrong. Fix what is broken...or break what is fixed.  Have your PCs become gods, or keep them as yoriki for a city magistrate.  Have yoriki become legends, or shatter before the raw realism of a world caught between big dreams and human cravenness.  

It's really OK.  
4 Comments
Ree
9/16/2021 01:04:32 pm

I think this is probably where the issue arose the first time around back in winter, honestly, and it's in the 'advocacy for neoliberalism' bit. The argument wasn't that it was the intent behind making L5R, more that because of when it was created, aspects of neoliberalism made it in anyway. So it's not that some people sat around and decided 'let's make a neoliberalism game with samurai', more that it shaped parts of the world and game because of the wider context of when/how/etc it was made.

The argument itself isn't one I claim to fully understand or agree with, because I'd have to understand it more to decide, but the crux of the argument itself is that in being a product of a certain time and place, it promotes a similar philosophy - maybe not by going out with a sign and saying 'this is what we want you to do', but in the same way the old lore promoted certain stereotypes that you've written about not liking. It didn't say 'we as a company are all for homophobia and wish to promote it in our community' in a separate box, but it was still very much what happened as a result of the flavour text and the time AEG's stuff came out in. It was still a promotion of those attitudes, even if it wasn't the aim in making the game world that way.

I dunno, I've pretty much left this game behind at this point, but from one person who did reviews to someone who does, I felt it worth cleaning up.

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Kakita Kaori link
9/16/2021 01:56:16 pm

Thank you so much for giving insights to the thinking that was going on. I'm not sure that I can agree with the argument that if a game (or story) was created within a certain context and therefore contains aspects of that context, it automatically promotes that context. It depends on what it is (within that context) compared to things also within the same context. Like Uncle Tom's Cabin might be considered to be promoting racism now, but it was absolutely cutting edge abolitionism and anti-racism at the time it was written. Like for Homophobia, AEG's material /might/ be considered homophobic now...but what was it within the context within which it was written? I can only say that when I picked up the books for the first time in 1997, I found it really refreshing and heartening to find an RPG, in L5R, that did not consider certain things effeminate and did not actively degrade men who did those things. That a good chunk of the players, did not accept this framing and /did/ respond with a lot of homophobia is a fault of the larger society, not of AEG. It was ahead of its time, as it were, but behind /our/ time. I'm so glad that society improves! It just means there has to be a measure of consideration taken when evaluating things in their historic context...even if their historic context was 20 years ago, not a century.

I can't really say if L5R was /more/ neoliberal than base standard for the time or less neoliberal than base standard at the time, though....that's a level of rarified air above me. I think the fact it makes an unjust society as a kind of nemesis that good samurai have to deal with actually makes it a little less than that of the time. Vampire the Masquerade, from a few years early, has no problem dividing humanity into elites and 'cattle'. And in that game, no one cares about the kine. Or at least the game system doesn't encourage you to care about them. But that's a different story?

In any event, thanks so much for your thoughts. Games are shaped by their environment, certainly, and that environment can (or at least should!) evolve past that point of the environment. And we all can look back and go 'that was bad'. So CGA was certainly on point for that. This just goes beyond that, I guess, to say 'be careful when analyzing in this way'.

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Marcus
9/19/2021 10:20:41 am

"Who can say it was homophobic in 97"?

We, the gays. We, the gays alive 97. We say it is and was homophobic.

Kakita Kaori
9/19/2021 01:48:06 pm

@marcus,
I 100% believe you when you say that. But I don't know what it was about the game system for L5R itself, separate from the negative elements of the L5R community, that was homophobic. I know the player backlash to certain elements in the game was very, very homophobic. But I'm not sure what specifically you are talking about within the game itself. If you don't mind, would you be willing to tell me? I want to make sure mistakes aren't repeated, and I'd like to correct my understanding if I am wrong. Thank you.

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    Kakita Kaori, also known as Jeanne Kalvar, has played the Legend of the Five Rings Role-playing game since 1st Edition. 

    But mostly she enjoys writing fiction.

    If you want to read her thoughts on things other than gaming, you can find them here:
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